The Fears Your Employees Won’t Share

AND WHAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT

Let's Talk, People: Episode 17

[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple decades of work as a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? Cause it's about to get real.

Let's talk people.

It is such a pleasure. To have Farnoosh Tohrabi joining us on Let's Talk People today. She's one of America's leading personal finance authorities who helps all of us to live what she calls our richest and happiest lives. I mean, you hear that alone and like, who doesn't need more Farnoosh in their lives?

She's a former CNBC host, creator of the [00:01:00] Webby nominated podcast So Money, which I highly recommend to take a listen to, and is a multi best selling financial author on books that include When She Makes More, The Truth About Love and Life for a New Generation of Women, and her newest book, which is A Healthy State of Panic, Follow Your Fears to Build Wealth, Crush Your Career, and Win at Life.

Farnoosh's work and advice has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Forbes, Time, Marie Claire, Glamour, USA Today, and she as a frequent guest on CNBC Today, CNN, MSNBC, Good Morning America, Dr. Oz The View, and Live with Kelly and Michael. Farnoosh is also my neighbor. I am lucky to know her.

So we are going to spend time talking about something that's really important, which is our fears. That alone might give you some [00:02:00] feelings. However, what I would encourage you to, to listen to is how powerfully Farnoosh reframes the concept of fear helps us to gain more empathy for our team members and the heaviness of what we hold as leaders in terms of the financial responsibilities that someone is carrying and just fears of losing their job, fears of not being good enough.

There's so much there. We're going to unpack a lot of that and you're going to really appreciate. I know how much. Farnoosh doesn't only talk about this as an expert, but from her own personal experience, which is a really fabulous role modeling of how to be vulnerable in a way that builds trust and connection.

So let's jump in.

Farnoosh, I am so excited to have you on Let's Talk People. Thank you, Emily. I think that there's a lot that people are feeling. I [00:03:00] think maybe always, and I have this hypothesis that our feeling side is getting magnified and maybe into the more negative realms. So given your experience around helping people with money issues, because that's a lot of what people struggle with, and your recent book, A Healthy State of Panic, there's a lot here for us to support our people managers on.

So, let's start, though, with getting to know you. We like to go back because, you know, who we are often started early for us. So, in terms of getting to know you, maybe if you don't mind sharing something from your childhood that will give us a little window into who you are the human today.

[00:03:40] Farnoosh Torabi: Oh, Emily, I could go in so many directions with this question, but I think I want to start with how I opened A Healthy State of Panic, which is I was around four years old, living in Worcester, Massachusetts.

I'm the daughter of immigrants. My mother and I are 19 years apart. She's taking an English language class and she drops me off [00:04:00] at a neighbor's house, a good friend, while she's out and doing this class. And I was excited to go over this neighbor's house. She has a daughter around my age and a son as well, who's actually younger than I am.

Cute baby. I noticed as we're watching, you know, reruns of Care Bears or whatever is on the TV that this mother is about to leave the house. And so I get up. I think, yeah, I'm like, okay, so we're in, you know, she's the only one, only adult with us. So I thought, okay, well, she's taking us somewhere. So I go up and I asked her naturally, like, where are we going?

And she said, no, actually, I'm going to the store. You stay here. Don't open the door for anybody. Now I'm gonna pause here and say this was the early 80s. And in fact today, there's no rule. I live in New Jersey. There's no rule as to like how old your child needs to be before you leave them home alone. There's no actual state law for this surprisingly.

I've looked it up. I have kids. Yeah, but I [00:05:00] knew, my four year old brain knew, this was not kosher. I was already a bit of a fearful, anxious kid anyway. Like, that was always my disposition. My mother, again, being a young teen mom, essentially, and coming to this country not knowing the language, the people, the culture, didn't have a job.

Like, she was terrified. She was married to my dad, and he was out, you know, trying to make a living and, support us, but That meant the two of us were home alone a lot, and I think her fears then were pressed upon me. And so the whole like, we all grew up with like, stranger danger, but mine was times, times a million.

You know, I really didn't trust strangers, being left alone, I was very afraid of being abandoned, and so cut to this mom saying very nonchalantly she's going to leave us. My fears get heightened, and I start to fight. My fight response increases, and I start crying. I start pulling on her sweater. I follow her into the [00:06:00] street where she's parked.

She's very determined, and she's also Iranian like me. So two Iranian females, you know, like who's going to win this match. And She was determined to leave the house. Her kids were used to this. They didn't even budge from the couch. They were just watching TV. And it's just this, yeah, this drama of me and this woman, you know, spilling out into the street.

Neighbors, were they even caring, watching? I don't know.

Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. Doubtful in that time.

Farnoosh Torabi: There was a voice in me that was like I would rather get dragged through the mud, hanging onto her Oldsmobile, than to be left alone. And, loud, long story short, she was not able to get to the store. I caused so much of a commotion, I actually threw myself onto her car.

And, for me, this story, I opened the book with it because it's sort of, Preposterous and funny and also maybe a little traumatic, a lot traumatic, but it really does capture this [00:07:00] child size of me who was terrified but did something to protect herself in that moment. I was called a Tarsu growing up which in Farsi means scaredy cat, and I wear it like a badge of honor because in that moment fear protected me.

Yeah, you know, it signaled to me that you have only yourself to really count on and trust here. And I think, you know, as an adult, I don't know if I would throw myself onto a running vehicle, but I would see fear and feel fear as a sign to take a beat and think about what your options are, what would help to make you feel safe, what helped to make you feel empowered, have agency.

And as a four-year-old, that's how it manifested. You know, it's like, I don't have a license. I don't have really anything. I just have my physical self. And I used it to try to protect my safety.

[00:07:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Okay, there's so much here, even in just this story. So the first is, I crack up when I tell my [00:08:00] children these stories of our childhood.

Yeah. Because they can't even imagine. Like, the no seat belts, the smoking in enclosed spaces. Oh my god. Like, this is a perfect example of how that was okay. Like, that actually was to some adults. Okay. So I think there's all that I find hilarious, right? They literally cannot believe how we were raised and I can't wait to hear what they say about how we parented once they're adults, you know, were those grannies, right?

The other thing that it reminds me of is this is a microcosm like this was an experience at four. You then had many, many more years to life. So think about all of us humans who then go to work, who have all of these lived experiences that have these deep impacts on how we show up in the world. And we bring all of that into the workplace.

[00:08:42] Farnoosh Torabi: Yeah. Yeah. That vigilance, that sort of like anxiety and distrust even of authority, it didn't just go away. I think it kind of grew with me and as my brain developed, and as I experienced life and [00:09:00] matured. Fear has been a constant in my life. I think in everybody's life. And it's just, it's how you, how you relate to it that I think in the end up makes all the difference.

And I had to learn how to be a little bit more patient with fear, a little bit more of a listener when fear arrived as opposed to a reactor and someone who was just trying to get fear to get off my body. Right. I had to learn how to live with it. In some kind of harmony, if that makes sense.

[00:09:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, like communicate with it, have a relationship with it, that it's not all negative.

It's to learn with it from it. That's what I loved about how you framed it up because I'm one of those like, no, no, no, like fear is bad. Fear is not good. I think that reframing is really important because you can't make it go away.

So, I want to jump to another moment. What really stands out for you as a moment in time that really led you to where you are and all that you've achieved at this point in your career, [00:10:00] which is a lot?

[00:10:01] Farnoosh Torabi: Thank you. Well, it's so cliche, but I got laid off in 2009. Like everybody, my mom had been laid off, you know, which is a game of like, who's next? It was the great recession, right? So especially if you worked in finance or media or real estate, really any, any job, you know, that gosh, it was such a widespread meltdown in our economy and our financial systems.

So I was unfortunately affected by the reorganization of the street.com in 2009. Notice I didn't say the word layoff, but whatever, I, I was kicked to the curb and I was 29 years old. Fortunately, in addition to being a full-time staff correspondent for this financial news site. I had just published a book and I had started to do a little bit of freelance side hustle, content work, [00:11:00] speaking some light media.

And so I have so much gratitude for that when that layoff happened, I had. built a professional repertoire, but in the moment, I was terrified of, will anyone ever take me seriously? My title was senior correspondent at the street. com, which was a very respected and still online financial news analysis site. I was very much like a face of that website. I was doing a lot of Today Show appearances, Good morning, America appearances on their behalf.

And I don't know, I just didn't trust that I could go out on my own, even though I had started to earn a lot of my own revenue streams independent of being at that company. So I think it was the kick in the pants that ultimately led me to just going full-force independent.

There weren't [00:12:00] any jobs at the time. It wasn't like I could easily go back into that role. I was worried about health insurance. I was worried about what my parents think. But it was a first for me.

It was a first where someone said to me, we no longer value you here. You have to go. I mean, that's a harsh thing to say. I guess they valued me, but not enough. I wasn't, there were people who kept their jobs that year. I mean, as you can tell, it's still like, I still can, it's easy to go into that narrative of like, Oh, I wasn't good enough.

[00:12:26] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah.

[00:12:27] Farnoosh Torabi: As opposed to, Oh, they knew I was not going to be around for much longer. Right? Honestly, I had thoughts, around the time of the layoff before the layoff of, Oh, what if I left and just did that, but I was too scared. And then I think being forced to leave and saying, you can no longer come back here, please give us your BlackBerry.

I think that was the light bulb that was like, okay, well. I guess I'm in the deep end now and I better learn how to swim. That night I went to dinner with a friend after I got laid off, and he was an entrepreneur, had always been. And he said, let's get some [00:13:00] champagne.

I said, it's too soon. I appreciate where this is going, but I just want to go home and not leave my studio apartment for at least two to three weeks, which I did, and I recommend that. I recommend sort of being sad if that is what you need to be for a while and grieve. It's a departure of a life that will no longer exist in that form. And it was a great run, and I think I needed to honor that in some way through grieving

[00:13:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right.

And it was part of what catalyzed you really being able to lean into what you could bring as a stand-alone human.

[00:13:40] Farnoosh Torabi: And lean in, I did.

I had an agent at the time, a talent agent. I was looking to rise through the ranks of television and broadcast media and my agent, I said to him, I'm going to go on the today show and let everybody know that I got laid off.

As, as a point, right? I'm in the trenches with y'all audience. It's the [00:14:00] recession. And if I'm going to come and give you advice, well, I'm going to also be honest with you, right? Like I was a victim of this recession, but here's what I'm doing, right? Here's what I've learned as someone who is like really going through it with you.

And he was like, I don't think that's a good idea. And not because he didn't think it was, it wasn't the authenticity that he didn't like, it was that he was worried that employers would still see a woman who had been let go at a media organization as unattractive or, well, how good could she be? Like the layoff was still a stigma, right? People would rather say like, I quit.

[00:14:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: It's like the, what's wrong with you?

[00:14:38] Farnoosh Torabi: Yeah. What's wrong with you? Why would, why wouldn't they have kept you on? So he's like, I don't know if that's a good idea. And I said, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to take the risk. And it paid off,

[00:14:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right? Because you're being you're being relatable.

And that that is everything that you put out there is you bring obviously tremendous [00:15:00] wisdom and expertise and financial acumen. But that It's that people feel that they can connect because you see them because you are them.

[00:15:08] Farnoosh Torabi: Yeah

[00:15:09] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So I think that kind of helps to bring us a little bit towards the two things that we want to get into. One is all that we hold, you know, that is let's say either sparked by the stuff we go through at work or that we bring into work because of our own lived experiences, our own self-esteem, our own hopes, fears, anxieties, and the role of a manager, right?

Because the manager, we tell this person, which many of us have been, you are responsible for these humans at work, and you're responsible for profitability and results and getting shit done. And it's hard to hold all of that, and you know, you're the person that people turn to for guidance around fear [00:16:00] in general, anxiety in general, because you've been one of the brave ones to put yourself out there, even as you just did right now to say that this is normal.

What is it that you really feel? Us who are the responsible humans at work for managing people, what should we really understand about what people feel right now?

Like, what is it they're telling you? What are they asking for guidance on? What are they struggling with? What do they worry about? What are their fears that are really presenting right now that we should be tuned into?

[00:16:27] Farnoosh Torabi: Oh, it's such a list. I would say the top fears when it comes to money, let's just say, is the fear of not having enough for today. The cost of living has skyrocketed, whether you're looking at rent prices, food prices, child care prices, the fear of losing it all someday.

Right. Some of us have a fear of like financial catastrophe, and it can be like a layoff, we are so vulnerable. You know studies have found few of us have even a hundred dollars or four hundred dollars as it is sometimes a thousand [00:17:00] dollars. Like, we don't have that to help us in cash to help us ride out In emergency, whether that's a health-related emergency, car breaks down, and then we have the fear of, I think for women, this is something that I can relate to, I had related to it, the fear of wanting too much, so the fear of raising your hand and saying, I'll go for that promotion because what will that imply about your ambition and your hierarchy of priorities.

As women, we're not allowed to say out loud, at least, that we really, really want to be ambitious and make money and be at the top. I mean, it's cool if you're with other like-minded women. Yes. To say that, but if you're in a room full of strangers, it can be a scary thing to say out loud because, well, I think it's partly because we haven't been conditioned to feel like that's a virtuous thing to want for.

[00:17:53] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right? And I agree. There is, there is something gendered about it. Cause it's true. It's gendered. I have one girlfriend where we like, we can, [00:18:00] we can go there. We can be like, yes. Yeah. We want a nice life and nice things and to be abundant, but it, it feels like a little secret that we have cause it's not appropriate.

So yeah. Ambition, desiring to make money. We should just be happy to be there. Right. Or to be ordered. It's the nurture. It's about what you're doing for others. So I think it gets almost like colluded with selfish that goes along greed. Right? Yep. So I think that's a real sensitivity.

And then I think the other one is really important that you are sharing about, like the catastrophe thinking like there's like a real heaviness of things could go really really wrong that managers I think need to be sensitive to that like when people get feedback you're like, oh my god, am I going to lose my job? Am I not good enough? Am I not going to get paid?

Because it's like, you're going to lose your home you're not going to be able to pay your utility bills like this idea that your life could unravel and that what you're sharing Farnoosh which I think Some of us who have had the success of being promoted [00:19:00] into leadership roles and making some money, we don't have maybe as close a touch to anymore of like how dire and daily it really is. Yes. That, that I think is very sobering.

[00:19:12] Farnoosh Torabi: Yeah, that when you get to a certain level, you have a cushion and Money creates stress, the lack of money, the worry about money, the fear of lack, it all manifests as stress, and stress is, you know, it shows up differently for all of us, for some it's physical, others it's mental, so those three fears of not having enough, which encompasses so much right there.

The cost of living has gone up. People are choosing not to have children, right? Because the cost is too high. They're leaving homes they love because they can't afford to stay there any longer. They can't afford health insurance, let alone try to save something for retirement and all of that. just layers of fear.

And then maybe they're arriving into the workforce as a [00:20:00] young person with student loan debt, not a lot of education around money. So it just becomes this cluster. And a lot of us, we started this podcast talking about our childhoods. A lot of us grew up without an understanding of just the basics of money, and we didn't talk about money.

So we don't have fluency around it. So when we know we need help, we don't know how to ask the questions, and we're afraid to ask the questions because what is it going to say about me? Everyone else seems to know what they're doing even though they don't. So that first piece of just fear of not having enough, there's a whole context for that that is real and is rooted as far back as our childhood.

It's not just the cost of eggs today. And then the others I think are things that managers should be sensitive to because it's, well, the second one about the fear of losing it all, that fear of scarcity, I think sometimes can be rooted in this narrative that isn't always true. Like maybe you grew up with [00:21:00] scarcity, and so you just don't trust that you're going to have a prosperous life.

You always grew up with debt, so your parents went bankrupt, so how could I possibly rewrite that for myself? You can! It's just saying you will, right? It's a thought process, it's a belief system. For women and others in the workforce that don't feel represented and haven't had the practice, let's just say, and also the invitation to show up at work and be their best and get promoted and make equal pay and all the things, I think there's a fear of wanting too much and the fear of asking for it because we do face a lot of rejection relative to others.

So there is a realness to that as well. And I think That third one, I think as a manager, if you have a team with people who, you know, are, are women or are sort of the onlys in their, in their culture that are there, I think it's important to recognize them and to have [00:22:00] frank conversations.

If they're not speaking up, if they're not taking on roles, you know, they're capable of doing, you know, they have the potential, you know, they should be making more, you know, they could be taking on more responsibilities and be more successful. Mentorship is imperative for them and just to know they have not just mentorship, but they have someone who's really going to go to bat for them and be a sponsor for them. That we know can really move the needle.

[00:22:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And I would almost think that you have to have at least one, if not many people who have one of these profiles, either they came from financial hardships in terms of how they grew up, either, you know, socioeconomic, some sort of an event that happened, parent losing a job, bankruptcy, or as you said, women, people of color, you know, anybody who could feel marginalized, there's a lot of people to advocate for.

And I think one of the most beautiful things that I've heard are the leaders Where they see it and they say it for the person like they help [00:23:00] to bring a voice to it versus like damn I'm getting away with not paying that person as much as I probably should be and that helps me with my budget. It helps me pay this other person who's a little bit more the squeaky wheel. More money. So I think that's a really important kind of moral slash values piece to bring up is our responsibility to take care of people who maybe don't have the permission or the upbringing as you described to be able to do that advocacy for themselves.

[00:23:26] Farnoosh Torabi: I just want to shout out an entrepreneur who's doing incredible work in this area of bringing programming and software to businesses that employ people of color. As an example, it's actually called Of Color, his software program, which essentially becomes a free benefit to employees who are of color, and we know because we have the data and we have the lived experiences that people of color have generational wealth gaps, right, that are often systemic.

And so they come into the workforce like everybody else with probably student loans [00:24:00] and other kinds of financial setbacks, but they also have this added huge added layer of not having as much of a financial literacy growing up. resources, access growing up, dating all the way back to their ancestors.

And so as an employer, it can go a very long way to just provide this as you're providing the 401k and you're providing like an HSA to say, Hey, we have this portal, you can go in and start learning about how to build good credit, how to budget and it's open to everybody, but we're doing this because we know we have many on our team that would benefit from this or we're providing it for everybody.

But, you know, we recognize this as an area for growth because we have representation on our team and the desire for this on our team.

[00:24:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that's an amazing benefit and again, there's an important part of this conversation about like the honesty of what's really going on for people and the role that we can play in a positive sense as leaders within [00:25:00] organizations to create a more equitable, more fair world, right? And thank you for highlighting it.

I want to take us to this topic of people just being unhappy and again, it can be from some of the things that you've already described, But again, like the pressures we put on ourselves to perform to not get laid off to make sure we get a bonus to get that promotion. It's leading so many people to be miserable, and I think it's both us as individuals and the pressure we put on ourselves. And I think there might be things about it that are more systemic.

And there's a piece of this on this topic in your book, Healthy State of Panic, where you're kind of sharing a story that your fear of failure, and there's an example you give of somebody who went through this, can drive you to what you describe as misery and stuckness to the point where we kind of lose track of like why we're even doing what we're doing.

So I think it's really interesting just to kind of explore like what part of that [00:26:00] is innate to us. And it's part of being human that we do put all this pressure on ourselves to perform and what part of it do you think is like financial scarcity that organizations are perpetuating and they are pushing people, you need to do more with less, you need to keep driving and pushing and doing, and that these people managers, this role that is so essential and exists in every organization, like they, they are stuck in the middle of that.

[00:26:30] Farnoosh Torabi: Well, just to touch on the fear of failure and why it's such a strong fear and why I dedicated a whole chapter to it typically manifests in our careers and in our financial lives and also in relationships. We don't want to lose. What's the opposite, right, of failing? It's winning. And so we don't like to lose.

 The label loser or failure signifies to us that there's something wrong with us, right? We didn't do enough. We didn't work hard [00:27:00] enough. We weren't smart enough. It's a measuring stick. What I want to pivot to, and it's just a thought, right? Like, okay, you're afraid of failure and sometimes it's legit.

It's because there's a learning gap. You know that there's a gap, there is a gap between you and success. You might be able to fill that on your own. Sometimes you can't, because again, systemic issues, not everything is within your control, but if it is something where it's like, oh, it's just a matter of relationship building or getting a knowledge that I don't have, a certification that I don't have.

Sometimes it's as straightforward as that to sort of alleviate the fear. But look, what you've done is you've addressed it, you've looked at this fear and said, why do I feel it? That's the first step. Why do you feel this fear? Is it truly because you know there is something more that you can do and you're just not addressing it?

And that if you don't, you could fail and that you would lose something that you do [00:28:00] value. The second question is, do you value it enough? Sometimes the fear exists because our definition of success isn't right. Oh yeah. I fear failing at this job. Because I just know that the success that I'm after is not the kind of success that I actually want.

I'm not going to actually achieve it because deep down, it's not what I actually want. It's not what I'm good at. So as a company, as an employer, I think it's important to recognize that your team, your employees may be grappling with the fear of failure at work. And it may be because the path to success and what that success looks like isn't speaking to them.

The best companies I've worked for there, there is sort of like the standard way to become, I'm going to use media as an example, like the editor in chief or the senior editor or the next level up in your, in your path. But what if, you know, you don't see yourself [00:29:00] in any of those roles and now you're fearing failure because you don't have the stuff.

And it's not because you can't fake it. It's just you don't want to. Your body actually is rejecting that. And so the question now becomes if I want to actually stay here and I value this company and I value what it's trying to do and the impact it's making and I want to be a part of this. Well then what is success for me here?

Is there something that I can create? Is there a hybrid sort of version of success where it's like a little bit of what the company wants, a little bit of what I want? And I think the best companies are open to that, they encourage that model, and it's not that they're abandoning their ambitions and their goals and the roles they want to fill in order to achieve their version of success, but like if they want to keep and retain the employees that are talented but may not care to be in that particular role that is positioned as their next step, if they work hard enough, well then what else is there?

[00:30:00] What else you got?

[00:30:01] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, and I think this is really important advice for the managers out there. Part of it is you have to ask these questions of the person on your team to try to know what's going on because you're going to feel it. You're going to feel something about their engagement or their performance that gives you a little bit of a nod.

If you pay attention that something is off. And then if you can have this conversation, then You may be able to work with it. I do think there's scenarios where it is the fit's just off, like it's not going to work and that's okay. And I don't think it's our job to try to make it work for everybody.

There's a job for everybody, and there's a wrong fit for everybody. But to your point, Farnoosh, I think that where the manager can help is you can figure out how to make it more meaningful. How do you find your why in the work?

[00:30:51] And I think that can be a really important role that we play because selfishly, it drives greater performance and productivity from a humanity perspective.

That's what's going to make that person gain more wellbeing, more joy, and thrive more at work. And so it is a win-win for the organization and for that individual. So I think that's really, really helpful.

And as you said, sometimes it means a different role or shifting some of the work responsibilities a little bit, or just trying to help get them a little bit more connected to why are you here? How do we make this more than just a job? That's a great check for you.

[00:31:24] Farnoosh Torabi: And how can we invest in your skills and in your network so that you can become more inspired to try something new or take on a different role or just continue to work with us? I say this thinking a lot of moms who have kids and just don't see themselves any longer fitting into the work culture that they're at.

And I think that's a failure. sometimes the employer, but also women who are selling themselves too short and think I'm not even going to propose, you know, a new format for myself at this company because it [00:32:00] feels too rigid. I don't think I can do that. I don't feel safe asking for these things. I think it's important that we advocate for ourselves as caregivers at work.

And also it's important for companies to recognize that when they can facilitate different pathways and be creative and be nimble for those who are caregiving. And it's not just parents, right? Everyone is a caregiver. They're caring for either a younger person, an older person or themselves.

And you're not a daycare, but you are a company that values, I would hope, your employees' mental health and mental well being and time. And resources that when they're doing well from, you know, six to eight, that means they're going to do excellent from nine to five.

And again, it's not that you have to go too far with them. It's just that even just that recognition, right? That care is care. And I know that. While we all love working here and we want to do good here and we all want to make the money and make [00:33:00] things, make the world turn. Like we have responsibilities at home.

And by the way, I'm pretty sure all managers have responsibilities at home. So just having that empathy and that understanding it's worth its weight in gold.

[00:33:13] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: From a retention perspective and from ultimately from a productivity perspective. Cause when you allow people to be a wholly integrated human, think about how they treat you as their employee, if that is a powerful relationship bond you're creating.

[00:33:31] Farnoosh Torabi: If I feel respected, I'm not going to cut corners. I'm not going to tiptoe. I'm not going to, I'm going to be forthright and going to have harder conversations with my employer, but the good ones, right? The ones that are really gonna at the end of the day, create solutions not everyone's going to have a kid at work. Right.

And I know that I hear this a lot from parents, like I feel uncomfortable, or I don't know what to say when I have to take a day off work and there can be resentment from other coworkers, but it's like, look, we're all caregivers. I just happen to have a kid.

[00:34:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That's right. No, and I love that one example is caring for ourselves, which is usually the one we don't think about or talk about, which is part of the challenges we're, we're all having in terms of health, wellbeing and motivation, right? So it's so important. I love this idea of kind of thinking about caregiving as something that all of us bring to work because it's part of our reality.

I think it's so important and it's so overlooked and it is a business issue. It's not a women's issue. It's not a social issue. It's a business issue. This is something I'm really passionate about. I'm actually, one of the businesses that I'm co-founding is at the intersection of kind of work and child care and wellbeing.

So I've done a lot of research on it. And there's research that says that even if only 1 percent of your employees took advantage of Child care benefits, the entire cost of the program pays for itself. [00:35:00] And then there was another one that said that the financial return on child care support can be as high as 425%.

Wow. I mean, that's, that's real math. You know, even if you're getting a fraction of the way there in terms of returns for that investment, it's paying off.

I am going to shift us and turn it over to Abby on our team at Let's Talk People who has some questions that we've been hearing from managers and leaders that we wanted to see if we could, you know, weigh in on and try to help.

[00:35:31] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, thanks Emily and Farnoosh. Here's an issue that we hear from our managers and our manager training at Arose Group. An employee asked for a raise because their spouse lost their job. That individual has shared a lot about their financial situation. They've had health issues, their kids are in private school, so quite a lot of burden.

How should the manager respond to this? What do they do with that information and that request that they're now holding?

[00:36:00] Farnoosh Torabi: Oh, I wish I'd spoken to this person before she went in for the ask. It's tough. Okay. There's a part of you that wants to react in a way that's like, sorry, life happens, right?

[00:36:11] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: You chose private school for your kids.

[00:36:13] Farnoosh Torabi: You chose private school. I'm not your financial advisor. I'm your manager. I don't think we should say these things, but that's, I'm going to be honest. I think that's probably going to be going through your mind, right? A little bit. Instead. Go ahead. I think it's important to sort of take it in, give them space to sort of, you know, share how they're feeling.

And if you do have a structure for how you give raises, this is a good time to sort of reiterate that. Here's how we typically give raises at this company. It's like, we want to track your performance. We'll have another meeting that is focused exclusively on, you know, your contributions and your goals.

And we'll talk about sort of the impacts of financial impact and all the wins that you're creating for us, and we'll measure that, and we'll see like where you are and how we can. Support that and speak to that. As far as the stress you're feeling at home, I get it. Maybe you've been through a layoff. You empathize.

Do you need to work from home? You know, two days a week. Is there, is there something that you can provide that is not monetary, but would give this employee other supports that they would really benefit from during this tumultuous time? You know, if they have to spend more time reviewing their budgets and cutting back, um, would it be helpful for them to take some PTO?

Or just have Fridays off and maybe not do the commute some days per week so they can earn back some hours during their week to focus on that family time and that personal finance time.

In hindsight, anyone listening who wants a raise your employer as nice as they are, as much as they care, as much as they ask about your family, as much as they want to know about how [00:38:00] things are going on at home and they care and they genuinely do when it comes to finance and earning more, the people who get the highest raises and the most raises are not the ones that bring up what's going on personally in their lives, they bring up what's going on professionally at work, right? What are the contributions they're making that are adding to the bottom line?

What is the growth that you have provided? To your team, to the company, the new ideas you've brought, the leadership that you've exemplified. This is the case for a raise because look, everybody's got stuff going on at home. And as much as we'd like to give everybody a raise and address everybody's hardships and pay off everybody's student loans and help your spouse find a job and help you find ways to cut your gym membership.

Your employer is not your financial advisor, and they're not your parent either. They have to create a boundary and I think there's a lot to explore once you open yourself up [00:39:00] to Okay, if I want to get a raise, I need to show some data. I need to be an advocate for myself I need to get receipts. Start collecting that stuff.

You will build a case, and you will have a better chance of making more money. Maybe even getting a promotion and if they don't give it to you That's okay too. I mean, I would prefer you get the money, but that work that you've done is going to show up for you at another job at your next interview someplace else.

And just now knowing your worth and your value, it's an exercise that everyone should do whether they're looking for a raise or not. Like you should know where you stand financially at your company based on the value they're bringing. Do external research, see what other employers are offering people with your level of experience, expertise.

years in the field, all of that, just to know because it's how you advocate best for yourself at work.

[00:39:50] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I so appreciate this because when you think historically where there's been pay equity issues, it's because we [00:40:00] can get impacted by someone's story. I'm the breadwinner. I'm the provider, right? You know, I have a kid going off to college because it's relatable.

Like we know what that feels like, or we have empathy. However, that empathy can also lead to some of the pay equity issues we talked about. So I think this is really important. It's really important for managers to hold a boundary here that you can have a heart and you can care and you should because that that is the humanity part of it.

But with your decision-making around who gets a raise and who doesn't get a raise needs to be grounded in, as you said, the pay structures and performance and outcomes. I think that's really important for us to be able to still feel good about who we are as a person and to be appropriate and responsible for our what I'll call power as a leader.

[00:40:48] Abigail Charlu: That's super great practical advice. Thank you to both of you. Another situation that's come in a high-performing employee shares and confidence that they're afraid of being laid off, given budget cuts and what the CEO recently shared about the organization's decline and performance. They ask for either some certainty that they'll be able to have their job for the next year, that you confidentially give them a heads up if they risk losing it or that they just need to start looking for a new role.

How would you recommend a manager handle this situation? What's a manager obligated to share? What can they say or do to keep this high performer motivated?

[00:41:31] Farnoosh Torabi: That's tough, Emily. I have never been a manager.

I don't think they're actually allowed to disclose confidential information that their higher-ups have given them. I know so many people who've been laid off. And their manager's new. I think you have to just play it neutral. It's really tough. And we can only give advice to the person, the high-performing employee, who's thinking about what's next for them.

[00:42:00] I think it's important that whenever you're working at a company where things are tumultuous, and there's whispers that, you know, you start to again do the good work of lining your ducks, you know, understanding the value that you've brought to this company, being prepared at any moment, right. To sort of advocate for yourself if there's a need for that, continuing to do excellent work is really important.

Continuing to assume that you're going to have a long journey there if that's what you want and keeping your eyes out, starting to build connections outside of work if you haven't already, revisiting relationships, seeing what's out there. I think the best advice I ever got as an intern, and this was 1999, so you'll get the reference, but my boss said, you should always be faxing out your resume.

She had just started. And she was faxing out a resume. And I was like, Candace, what are you doing? She's like, never be not faxing out a resume.

[00:42:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I learned that the hard way. I was the opposite. I was like a loyal, put your head down, work hard, and don't think about anything else. And then it took, you know, getting laid off for me to be like, Oh, um, that's not a good strategy because then you are like off, off the grid.

I think this is a tough one because managers in some ways have a vested interest in people keeping their heads down and just working and not being out there in the world. I think the healthy medium that I see is what I call like being networked because being networked can help both your employer. And it can help you if you do need to get another job.

So if I'm the manager, I think having people stay in touch with people in their networks, going to industry events, you know, going to a dinner here or there, because I'm now seeing it, you know, from my vantage point is that's where you get ideas. That's where you get to benchmark. That's where it's great.

You are a part of a community, and then it ends up that that community is who can help [00:44:00] you if you need to get another job. That becomes the source of more connections, more intros, getting your resume to the right person. And that feels like to me like a win-win, but I completely agree with you, Farnoosh.

There is a boundary that you've been entrusted with as a manager, as a leader, that you're going to know things that you cannot share with other people. Either would create. Undo anxiety or it's breaking your responsibilities to the organization. And so, yes, I think one of the harder things that we hold is as people managers is that there are going to be times that, you know, things that other people would like to know, and you're not allowed to share them.

But I think that this. The idea of being respectful of allowing people and supporting people to have a voice in the world and to be networked and connected is the human side of being a leader because there is a benefit if at some point in time, you know, either their skill sets don't match the need or the job goes away or the restructuring or whatever it may be, then they're not starting from nowhere.

And so I think maybe that is a way to navigate it that could work for both.

[00:45:05] Abigail Charlu: I think that's a good, healthy way of encouraging them to get out and to freshen up their resume while, you know, encouraging them to stay focused and do, do great at their job now. Right. To bring value.

[00:45:18] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. Farnoosh, like, you know, being of value gives you good job stability to whatever degree you can control it.

[00:45:25] Farnoosh Torabi: Mm hmm.

[00:45:27] Abigail Charlu: That's good. And you know, managers are people too. They have their own fears. Whether it's wanting to be seen as a strong performer, or having concerns over their own job stability and their own team performance, how well they manage the team. How do you lead effectively when you're managing your own anxieties?

How much, if anything, should you share with your team about your own fears and your daily struggles?

[00:45:55] Farnoosh Torabi: Well, as I always say to my children, read the room, I think it's important to hopefully you've risen to the ranks of leadership because you have a really good sense of how to read the room, read people, understand what's appropriate to share, how to share, what's enough, what's too much, and I think I would just defer to that leader and say, trust your gut.

You know, you've gotten to this position probably because you have a really good sense of instinct and connection, but I think it's very nuanced. I think it just depends on your relationship with that person too. That even said, I think that there's a level of professionalism that always seems to be kept at work and that these days you have to be very careful about.

Triggering, right? That your experiences as worthy as they are of sharing, sometimes it's not safe or right to do it in that particular room in front of particular people. And you may not, you don't know, of course, what people are experiencing, but [00:47:00] just to be on the safe side. So I think always deferring to being a little bit cautious about what you share.

Not to say don't share anything, but just be careful about oversharing.

[00:47:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I totally agree. I feel the same. One of the ways I help people to think about that, how do you read the room piece that you're bringing up for our new show, which I agree with you, it is pretty innate. Because when you're a people manager, you do have a responsibility and you do have power.

It's like, is sharing this going to be helpful to others? Or in what ways would my sharing this help these other individuals? And so that way it takes it a little bit out of what you need and a little bit into imagining the needs of that audience that you're there to serve as a manager and as a leader.

And then also the relevance, like when it feels like it's like, wait, what, what, what, where did that just come from? Even if it was okay, as you said, it might not have been okay at that moment. It felt like, you know, it didn't fit with the purpose of coming together. So I mean, that's a really important one too. It's timing.

[00:48:02] Farnoosh Torabi: Mm hmm.

[00:48:04] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So in closing for Farnoosh, we like to talk about this idea of breaking patterns because we all have patterns that perpetuate within ourselves, our teams, our organizations. What's a pattern? Mm hmm. You feel as a leader. You're here to break.

[00:48:23] Farnoosh Torabi: Stop ignoring your fears. Don't see fear as weakness and assume that fearlessness is strength.

When fear shows up, see it as an opportunity to get closer to it, which really means getting closer to yourself, your values, your goals, what's important to you. And again, we're talking about fear at the intersection of things that are high stakes, your job, your family, your money. These are the times when you take a moment to reflect on your fear, what is its message?

What does it want you to seek, to learn, to fill, to embrace. To protect yourself and get the agency that you're really hungry for in that moment so that you can make good choices, make good options for yourself. That's a pattern that is worth creating. We don't do it. It's not instinctive to us, but trust that it can work for

[00:49:17] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: you.

I love that we're going to like in 2025 we're having a relationship with our fear, a healthy relationship with our fear. I think that's really, really powerful. Amazing. Thank you, Farnoosh, for joining and for all the wisdom and, you know, just bringing such a diverse perspective to this conversation. It's a really tough one and a really important one for all of us, but especially for managers to be reflecting on. So thank you.

[00:49:45] Farnoosh Torabi: Thanks Emily.

[00:49:51] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: There's so much here from this conversation. I felt like we went so many important places, so just to try to bring it home and sum it up for us.

Number one, and I know I really have learned this from Farnoosh, is I did call fear a kind of a bad name, and it's associated with only bad emotions. I really appreciate. That the reframing of it could be a real signal for us of what's important and an ability to tap into kind of that relational and connected element of vulnerability as leaders and to ask that question of ourselves. You know, like, what's the fear here to teach us? I think that was a great way that she says it.

I think the other part is about how to be empathetic and compassionate as a leader, but to know that there are important boundaries and how do we teach our team members about those boundaries and appropriateness to set them up for great success when advocating for themselves at work.

To look for opportunities where we can see how we have architected, let's say, inequities, the lack of addressing human needs at work. May it be building financial acumen, empathy around childcare, because we are all humans also at work.

At Let's Talk People, what we love to do most is help you unpack your toughest people management challenges. So send them in, send in the situations you're struggling with, questions that you have about leading your teams, and we will anonymize them and give you answers and our advice on an upcoming episode.

You can write them an email or attach a little audio message with your scenario to abigail@arose group.com. That's Abigail a B I G a I L at arosegroup, A R O S E G R O U P. com.

Thanks for joining today's episode of let's talk people. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny on LinkedIn and Instagram.

[00:52:00] If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app. It helps other listeners to discover us.

Well, that's a wrap friends. Until next time, when we come together to talk people.