Let's Talk, People Episode 11
[00:00:00] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Hi, I'm Emily Frieze-Kemeny, host of Let's Talk People, where leaders come to bridge humanity and profitability. Informed by a couple of decades of work as a head of talent and leadership development, I'm here to amplify leaders so they can exalt everyone and everything they touch. Are you ready? Cause it's about to get real.
[00:00:28] Let's talk people.
[00:00:32] I am so excited to welcome onto the show, Dr. Emily Haseltine, who's a clinical psychologist with a master's from Columbia University, a doctorate degree from George Washington, and a post-doctorate fellowship at the White Institute of Psychiatry, Psychoanalysis, and Psychology. One of the world's most prominent psychoanalytic training and treatment centers, based in New York City.
[00:00:57] If you've ever experienced dealing with a person with narcissistic tendencies at work, it is really challenging, especially if you're in the position of trying to manage that individual. It is as if you are having two completely unrelated experiences and observations of why the work isn't getting done and isn't getting done well, and it's really hard.
[00:01:25] This episode is going to really help us. To navigate the conundrum of how we manage these individuals and get the work done with excellence when there are multiple versions of a perceived truth going on. It requires us to do our own self-work and do our own reflection about how might we be contributing to the dynamic and causing it to get more difficult or to escalate in certain ways.
[00:01:55] Emily, or who we're going to refer to today as Dr. Hazeltine. We are so excited to have you on. Let's talk people.
[00:02:03] Dr. Emily Haseltine: Thanks for having me. I'm really looking forward to the conversation today.
[00:02:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: So let's frame it up. We have been navigating over the course of our careers, supporting people who are going through really challenging times.
[00:02:19] Interpersonal dynamics, of course, in the context of my work, it's in the workplace for you. It's people coming to you more for therapeutic support and wanted to do is provide some of our insights and help people as well with questions and situations. They submitted for this episode of how you navigate some of the more difficult.
[00:02:42] Interpersonal situations at work, and it's not that people describe them this way, but what we've found as we were unpacking it. it often is people who have narcissistic tendencies and I know in your work. Sometimes it is people who are narcissists, but maybe Emily, if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit, just to frame it up of like, what does that mean?
[00:03:05] How does that present people can get a sense of like the scope of what we're going to try to unpack today.
[00:03:10] Dr. Emily Haseltine: Yeah, sure. So it's interesting. I'd say in my practice, I'm mostly meeting with people who are coming to me because they have people in their lives, whether a partner, a family member, a person at work, like we're going to be talking more about today, who is, you So challenging that by the time they get to me, they're like overwhelmed or then they're even having symptoms in response to the whole situation because it's so stressful.
[00:03:37] So something like a lot of anxiety or difficulty sleeping, things like that. So challenging people come in every single form. You know, there's so many flavors of challenge, I guess, but you know, I think When you and I were kind of just preparing a little bit to speak today and noticing there is a very distinct clear category where someone might have an actual personality disorder, and then they might have a narcissistic personality disorder.
[00:04:04] I would also say that those people don't typically present. to clinicians because they often think that other people are the problem. They may on occasion go for support, but they're not typically going because they're thinking something's going on with them and that they really need to look into it.
[00:04:20] But that's also a very specific person. In theory, we could be talking about some of those people today, but you know, that's a clinical population where someone has to, you know, have a mental health professional diagnose them and all that. But for the purposes of our conversation, it's like a narcissistic character style.
[00:04:36] And really what it is, when we're handling something really challenging, that brings up vulnerability in us. We have typical ways of managing the vulnerability. And so a particular style for managing vulnerability is a narcissistic style. And so what does that look like in general?
[00:04:55] A person like this in every minute, they're kind of starting to feel vulnerable. They're in a process of warding off shame. And, shame is, I don't feel good enough, I'm not worthy. The tricky thing about these people though, who have more of a style like this, is that they don't actually generally have conscious awareness of this fact.
[00:05:15] So it's not like someone who's a bit more depressive and you'd be like, you know, in a work setting, someone who's depressed, you say, well, you got this. I know you can do this. Like, I know you keep thinking you're not good enough, but you got this right. Someone who presents with a more narcissistic style, they're going to do whatever they can in that moment.
[00:05:32] Get rid of the shame and put it somewhere else. And typically the somewhere else is on you. And so one little example, and then, you know, I want to know your thoughts, but basically, you know, one thing they'll do is if you're in a work setting, let's say there's something you're having to work with this colleague and they, You know, made a mistake and you just need to talk it over so that they can just regroup and do it differently next time.
[00:05:55] And so when you've just kind of come to them in a very professional way, asking them to take accountability for what happened, it's literally like they cannot take that on because that would mean they're not good enough. So someone else who has a lot of capacity might be thinking, you know, I made a mistake.
[00:06:15] Now I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to talk with a colleague or a boss and, and it might feel like not so great, but it doesn't mean that it's the worst thing ever. It's kind of like, I'm a good enough person and I made a mistake and now I can learn. Right. That's a real sign of psychological strength for a person who's more difficult, especially to work situations.
[00:06:34] They're going to have such trouble taking any accountability because it's going to get into that shame zone. And again, this is not. Conscious. Typically, they're going to do anything they can do to expel it. So they're going to blame you. You know, this happened next thing. You know, you're in a conversation where they're like, listen, you described it to me wrong.
[00:06:53] Like the way you described this task was this, this, and this. And that's why I did it that way. And now, now we're in a conversation with someone who's highly defensive. You, you went to them, right? And now you're thinking what, I guess now I'm wrong, right? Because if they're a victim, then they didn't do anything wrong.
[00:07:11] So that's just 1 little example of there'll be a lot of blame-shifting, right? And these people are really challenging to work within a collaborative situation. I think this
[00:07:20] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: TjIs wI hy so many people feI ar giving feedback. This is a perfect example of what you experience that makes you not want to do it again really positive intent.
[00:07:29] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: really positive intent.
[00:07:31] Dr. Emily Haseltine: Yeah,
[00:07:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: wanted to help the person. I mean, again, I think we all get a little bit scared giving feedback because we want to maintain the strength of the relationship. When we go through these relationship dynamics, we end up feeling really unsafe. But I think that the other thing that you said, Emily, as well, going back to your practice of how it interferes and people sleep and it causes anxiety, is there something about the intensity of the reaction that people have, even if you can see, like, there's no way what I've said or done should cause that type of reaction.
[00:08:05] For those of us who are like really compassionate leaders and people managers, we hold it and we feel like, wow, I must have really done something wrong or why did they react that way? It leaves you very confused and overwhelmed, I think.
[00:08:20] Dr. Emily Haseltine: Yes, for sure. And I, and almost, I think one thing I'd also add is that it can often leave the person on the receiving end of that, that difficult person's kind of accusations or defensiveness and all that feeling like, yeah, like, a self questioning, like, wait a second.
[00:08:38] Wait, okay. I guess I have to review, did I do that? Like, was I setting this person up for failure or did I come with biases? I had absolutely no idea. So this is one thing I'd say is also really tricky because there are certain characteristics that make a good manager. One of them being like, You know, kind of cognitive flexibility and being able to kind of the thing that we're saying the other person's having trouble with, like, taking commentary under review and kind of looking at being self reflective and kind of adjusting and.
[00:09:10] The thing is, like you were saying is if a, if a good manager is doing that with someone who is kind of just putting all of the responsibility back onto, let's say in that case, the manager, it can be really tricky because then it's kind of like, how can you be self reflective and thoughtful in that situation?
[00:09:28] And also this is what I try to help people do in my practice, which is like really also first tune into what they know to be true. Even after sifting through some of the, you know, the feedback from that person, even a challenging person, cause you don't want to be closed off. They might have a good point, right?
[00:09:46] Even a really challenging person could have a really good point and you want to be able to take that in. But I think what can happen with really challenging people, it's hard to even find kind of the land where you're like out to sea. It's like, I can't tell where we are at this point. I thought I went into this situation knowing where I was.
[00:10:03] Now I'm leaving. Confused, you know, so for example, also, this has been thrown around so much in our culture now, but something like gaslighting where it's, you know, that didn't happen. I feel like you're getting a little forgetful lately. Like that didn't happen. You know how you've said you forgot that last week.
[00:10:20] Well, that must've been what happened here. And the next thing, you know, right. You're thinking, I mean, what, I mean, I thought it did happen. And right. So that that's the one where it's a denying reality or really kind of lying and then blaming the other person. It can be very. Destabilizing.
[00:10:36] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that I want to just really point out the tip that you gave, because I think it's really important, which is.
[00:10:43] To find your way back to your own center. And I love the acknowledging that maybe there is something to be learned for ourselves in these situations. Cause we, we can always learn and to say, kind of like knowing your own truth. I know my intentions were positive. This doesn't feel right. Like, I think there's a, it sits with you in a way where something doesn't feel right.
[00:11:07] And for those of us who are highly empathetic, I think it's Managers, we feel like, oh, I must have done something wrong to cause this reaction. But I think that's not always the case. I think it's that somebody is going to have their reaction and I can hold the space. That that's something that's going on for them, but that doesn't mean I need to take that into my own nervous system.
[00:11:28] Dr. Emily Haseltine: Yeah, I think you're really speaking to 1 of, you know, for talking about, okay, what are some tools or even a few strategies to tune into? Obviously, both of these things. Could be multiple psychotherapy sessions for sure. And how to kind of resource yourself, how to ground yourself and how to recognize the patterns and all of that with support.
[00:11:48] And also I think on the business end to be having the coaching there and know how to handle it in a professional way and all that, but yeah, I think you're speaking to something so important, which is whether they're conscious of it or not, people with this general personality style. It's almost like they need you to be pulled into the dynamic for it to work.
[00:12:07] So with a lot of my patients, I talk about the tennis analogy. So they are going to serve you, you know, some massive John McEnroe type. You want to be like a thick velvet curtain. So they are going to serve it. And you are the thick velvet curtain in response, just like it hits it. And it doesn't go anywhere.
[00:12:27] So what does that really mean? If we're saying if they're trying to pull you into that dynamic, you alluded to it, Emily, which is that, you know, you can say, I hear that that is your experience of this or something. I think it's a really great kind of sentence. It's like, that may well be. And we're focused on solutions, or, you know, I hear that that is all the emotion that you've been feeling with this, and I'd like to bring us back to the task at hand, but you're kind of just kind of, we're not going to be pulled into the emotional tug of it.
[00:13:00] And then, because then we're in a massive tennis match, and it just feels endless. You can never step off that court.
[00:13:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, it's, it's the acknowledging. But not following their version of the narrative, like, you're bringing it back to the topic of the work that needs to get done or the feedback that you had intended to give.
[00:13:20] I want to also bring in. Abigail Charlu from our team at let's talk people, because we did get some questions and some situations that were submitted. Obviously, we've anonymized them, but want to make sure we get at as many of. The audience questions as we possibly can on this episode. So Abigail, I'm going to turn it to you to tee us up with the questions and situations that came in.
[00:13:47] Abigail Charlu: It’s such a pleasure to be here with you, Emily and Dr. Hazeltine.
[00:13:53] Dr. Emily Haseltine: It's nice to see you, Abigail. I'm looking forward to listening to some questions.
[00:13:58] Abigail Charlu: One of the most common iterations of input that we got was people not taking responsibility for their work and not being able to receive feedback. And when they get feedback, they Get really defensive.
[00:14:13] So what do you recommend doing in one of those situations? How do you deal with an employee like that?
[00:14:19] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: For me, it starts way back because if you haven't set expectations, then you don't really have a place from which to engage. I think that often we get caught. Because we think that it's clear either because we know how to do the job ourselves or because we're busy and we just jumped right into the doing of it when you level set with someone and you say, let's talk about what it is that we need to accomplish and what your role is in it and what that looks like.
[00:14:49] What I expect of you. Even that word expect probably feels a little uncomfortable for some people to even be that direct, but it's really important because you have to be fair to setting the person up for success. Once you've done that, and I don't think there's ever a wrong time to do what I'd call a reset on performance expectations or even relationship expectations of like, this is how I want to be engaged with as your manager.
[00:15:12] When I need you to bring me in, what I need to be updated on, what we'll do when we have our check ins together. You can do it at any point in the relationship from that place. Then you can say, we Talked about this as an expectation. We talked about this as the timeline. We talked about what we do when something goes sideways because what I find that happens in a lot of these situations back to what you were saying, Emily, about excuse making is the person's going to have a totally different narrative, but you can bring it back to, you know, we had talked about if that happens.
[00:15:44] You can bring me and you can come to me for advice versus just letting the situation fester and the work not being completed. Those are some examples of what come up for me is kind of just creating a foundation from which you can give feedback and reference back.
[00:15:59] Dr. Emily Haseltine: I 100 percent agree with that. In a way, I'd say excellent.
[00:16:06] Leaders who run a tight ship in so far as expectations are clear, roles are defined, we circle back. There's a support structure. It's well defined. That's probably the best things for most of us. Maybe not all of us, but generally most of us. And it's particularly helpful for someone who's a challenging or more narcissistic leaning person, right?
[00:16:28] Because there's not a lot of like, you know, if we're going to have a permissive open style, that probably is great for somebody or an artist who just needs to, we just are like, they're an excellent employee. We're going to cut that person loose, but not.
[00:16:43] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Yeah, the thing that sparked me as I was listening to you is I don't even think someone would stick around and be able to work at that organization or for that leader if there was that much structure in place.
[00:16:58] Like, it will trigger them because they don't want to sit within somebody else's construct. So to me, You're going to get a data point very early on in the relationship. If you try to do that, and you try to be really clear on expectations, really clear in the relationship dynamics. And what we refer to as agreements, like, kind of informal shaking of hand that says, we're going to do this this way together if they already start to get squirmy around that.
[00:17:26] One of the scenarios had come in that Abigail and I had been reading over together was the person was saying that they already had capability to do the role, but there was no evidence in their background that they had. And so they were very offended by the fact that the manager wanted to test them out, wanted to have them do some practice.
[00:17:49] And again, the manager didn't know what to do, but that's already a sign that something's on the good day. Don't want you to set them up for success and ensure that they're capable. That is not a good situation.
[00:18:03] Dr. Emily Haseltine: Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's also, of course, if they're already hired, it's a little tricky.
[00:18:07] That's the thing, because also these things are very, they're really hard to assess for on a, even a set of interviews, but yeah, that, that idea that a bit of the entitlement, like, because I said this, I can do this. And I mean, that might be true, but they're, you know, there are people that work, we're going to be.
[00:18:26] Excited to show you that they can and to work with you to, and you would say, let's, let's look at building your skills and show me what you can do over time. And they would be really happy to do that. But people who are more narcissistic are not going to be happy to do that. They're kind of offended.
[00:18:45] They most likely would be feeling challenged and then not good enough. Probably again with little awareness over that fact, but yeah, it would be a clear sign. And so maybe they'd eventually look for another job even if there's really clear expectations, good management, good leadership. I think narcissism won't thrive.
[00:19:05] Abigail Charlu: Yeah, really good. And I'm just curious that that last part when. You're in the conversation and the other person is getting defensive, or they have some other type of strong reaction. How do you kind of disarm that person, or is it possible to? Oh
[00:19:21] Dr. Emily Haseltine: Man, that's a tough one. Disarm is a wish, right? I think the primary goal is like, One, we're not going to take the bait of it.
[00:19:31] So when they're defensive, they're often then blaming you or other people or just being diffusely like, it's not me. Right. So I think the first thing is we just don't want to get in an argument or a power struggle with that person. So if they're like, well, it wasn't me, you know, you did that, I think what people are feeling is valid.
[00:19:53] Even the very challenging person, right? I do think it is important to hear the feeling and to potentially validate it. Because it's their experience. Subjectively, this is their experience. I feel attacked. That is not what happened. Okay. So as a person working with them or as a manager, I actually think saying, I hear that's how you see it.
[00:20:17] That sounds really challenging. Right. And I'm sorry that that's how you're experiencing it. And I would want you to be authentic because you know, it does sink to feel that way just because these people are quite challenging to work with does not mean they don't have humanity like all of us and it's their experience.
[00:20:34] So The first thing I might do would be to validate their experience. Look, I find that that's important for all of us. People who are more narcissistic in their style is that they have trouble with having, you know, two things can be true at the same time. We both can have a different experience of the situation and we both can be right.
[00:20:54] And then also there are expectations here. And these are the things we contracted for, or we had some agreements around and then we're just going to bring it back to the work product. And then we're going to see how we can find solutions.
[00:21:06] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And this is something that, you know, we've talked through together.
[00:21:10] You and I, which is it's okay to say, we, we actually see the situation differently. I think that it part of acknowledging is essential because that's the humanity part of the relationship is this is another human being who has feelings and have needs and there's something going on for them for sure.
[00:21:30] Dr. Emily Haseltine: Yes.
[00:21:31] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: And we can acknowledge the feelings, or we can acknowledge their, that that is their truth, as you said, and I think as a leader and as a manager, whether it's somebody on your team or colleague, you can say, that's not how I experienced it, or that's not the feedback that I heard from others, you can say, you know, we can agree to disagree.
[00:21:54] One of the things that when we. Have helped people through these situations and just through reading some of the tone and tenor of what was submitted. You don't have to let the other person's truth be the truth. As you said, Emily, about the tennis ball element of this, you don't have to engage in a debate because you're never going to win.
[00:22:17] It will go on forever. And you'll be exhausted and very frustrated. If you are the manager, you have to reclaim your power in a very kind way, but direct.
[00:22:30] Abigail Charlu: Really, really helpful advice. So another situation that we had submitted, this individual has been a manager at many organizations for over 10 years. A few months ago, they started a new organization hired into a management position.
[00:22:45] There's one team member who's really resistant to that manager and to being managed and That individual that's resistant, they're good at playing politics. They recently went behind the manager's back. And met with someone senior on the leadership team and spoke negatively about them and the team. What advice would you give to that manager?
[00:23:07] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: The thing that comes to mind for me is that you have not established yourself as the manager yet. And I think this is a tough one. Part of it is you have to earn that person's respect and trust. I think we all have that when we're taking on a new team or managing new people. There is a little bit of we're feeling each other out.
[00:23:25] And I think if you don't step into your leadership, then you are leaving it open for people to go around you and to not take you seriously. So that's the thought that's coming to me is I would do it from a place of relationship building, not from an authoritarian. Like, let me tell you who's boss, you know, like I, I would do it from a, I want to get to know you.
[00:23:46] I know we're new to working together. I care about you being successful. Tell me what matters to you. So I would first really try to show the person that I care about them and their interests, because I want them to know that I'm a place they can come to get your needs met, you know, in terms of your career and your success.
[00:24:03] And to acknowledge that you know that they did something that is undermining of the relationship, which is, I understand that you went to so and so, and this is how it came back to me. And while you have permission to speak to anybody you want within our organization, and I totally support that, I want us to be able to have these types of conversations first where possible.
[00:24:25] And when you do that, it makes me question, how safe is it in our relationship with each other? Thank you So I will do what I need to do as your manager to make you feel safe and supported, and I would ask the same of you.
[00:24:38] Dr. Emily Haseltine: I love what you said. I think that's great. Also, I would just add is that more of the context of this, the person's probably feeling or we're guessing a bit threatened, right?
[00:24:49] There's someone new, they know the power dynamics now that, you know, the new managers in town. And so, again, if we're thinking about it through a little bit of a person who's organized in a narcissistic way, they're threatened and they're going to try to assert some level of dominance. And that's probably what's happening, even if they're kind of back channeling with people and talking smack and all that again, it's back to what we were talking about earlier, really keeping things accountable.
[00:25:16] Encouraging growth oriented and like exactly how you put it is a real great way to keep kind of some guardrails around a warm, positive relationship. That's more collaborative. And also I would say people who are generally of this style love interest in themselves. I heard you're really great at this, this, and this I'd be authentic about it.
[00:25:36] I'd find what they are good at. I find it out. I'd say I've heard that this, this, and this I'd really love to. To collaborate with you in this way. I know you could be helpful in this way, whatever, you know, you're going to build on their strengths. And I would, I would actively tell them what those are and that you've heard of them.
[00:25:52] That's going to be pleasing to them. It's pleasing to any of us.
[00:25:55] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think that's right. I think you're winning the person over by seeing them. I love that point. And you're making it very clear that they can't do what they're already starting to do. Like if you let that go, forget it.
[00:26:09] Dr. Emily Haseltine: forget it.
[00:26:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: There is no safe container in which you can manage them or direct them because you're always going to feel vulnerable because they're, they are going to run and tell somebody else a different version of the story.
[00:26:20] And if they continue to do it to me, now you're having a performance conversation about that behavior.
[00:26:26] Abigail Charlu: Agreed. Absolutely. So let's go to another situation that was submitted. This manager is managing a younger team member. It is their second job out of college in the last two years. The team member has some really good ideas, but most of the ideas are unrealistic.
[00:26:43] According to the manager, the team member comes with a lot of opinions. They don't respect their authority. They're not accountable. They're constantly complaining about the workload and their work isn't where it needs to be. How do you recommend that manager deal with that team member? They said they tried to have a conversation about their performance, but the team member shut down and started to blame the manager and other team members for excluding them on the team.
[00:27:12] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I know I have to jump in because I love this one so much. Is it so typical? Like there's like multiple things happening. You're like, okay, if it was just one of those things, it'd be hard to unpack. But you know, you have somebody who feels entitled, wants to work the way they want to work, asserting opinions very early in career, which thank goodness we want opinions and it can be a little much.
[00:27:34] It sounds like from the manager's perspective and they don't want feedback. You're like, okay, wow. We got it all. One of my favorite things that happens and Emily tell me if this is the right characteristic of it, when I. See people struggling to manage people with narcissistic tendencies is literally the thing that the person's doing.
[00:27:54] They flip it and they make that the characteristic about you, like, let's pretend this is a situation and he would flip it and say. You are always running the meeting in a way where you're sharing your opinion over and over, and none of us can have an opinion.
[00:28:10] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Like, wait, literally what just happened? Like, I literally
[00:28:12] Dr. Emily Haseltine: It's projection, yeah.
[00:28:14] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Right. They flip, it's almost as if you now have become the person who you thought they were. They put it on you and then you're like in this like alternate universe. That one puts me over the edge.
[00:28:26] Dr. Emily Haseltine: I would say it actually, you're describing what we were talking about earlier. I had a couple of thoughts about it.
[00:28:32] One is we're always going to be thinking, right? This is a newer person, younger in their career, so they have a lot to add, but of course they're generally in rooms with people who have a lot more experience. So how is the person that's has narcissistic tendencies feeling quite vulnerable, right? Someone else in that situation who does not have those tendencies would defer a bit.
[00:28:50] Yeah. Yeah. Maybe over defer, we'd want to pull that person out, right? But this person is going to present that way. You're reminding me, it's a more extreme phenomenon, but it's called DARVO. So defense, attack, reverse victim offender. So I know that can happen in extreme circumstances, but there's this, it's a bit of this, right?
[00:29:10] The person's going to immediately be defensive. They're now going to attack you or someone else for the very thing. That you were kind of coming to them to address. And now you're kind of thinking, wait a second, right? Like the whole thing gets completely flipped. And again, why are they doing that?
[00:29:28] Because it is too overwhelming to hold the vulnerability. So now we're going to be a victim, right? If you're a victim, then you don't have to take accountability. You're the victim. I sometimes use this in my practice with patients. I'll say, it's like, if the person is having trouble swimming, right. They.
[00:29:46] What they do is instead of saying, Hey, can you help me? And you hold hands together and you swim to shore that person in the vulnerable situation is going to take your head who is next to them, push it down. So they can breathe. It's a little bit of like, they're just going to do whatever they can do. I know that sounds like a dramatic analogy right there, but it feels like you're suddenly like now I'm drowning.
[00:30:07] I don't know what's happening. Right. It feels a bit like it is overwhelming. And again, It is almost impossible not to take that bait, but that's why once you get to know that person, you're going to always be recognizing, okay, they're vulnerable. I don't want to get into a power struggle. I'm not going to start defending, right.
[00:30:25] It's kind of like a healthy level of detachment. Always. You want to feel grounded in your body. You mentioned the nervous system. We want to feel really grounded. When we go into a conversation like this, and we're going to always keep it to the facts and you're going to do that same thing where we're going to validate, listen, I hear that you're feeling frustrated.
[00:30:42] Sorry to hear you're feeling that way. I'd like to bring it back to how we can make sure that you're feeling supported, but I also have some feedback.
[00:30:51] Abigail Charlu: This last situation, manager is dealing with their manager, their boss, and they said the boss is a little bit of a nightmare to deal with. They try to drive results without considering what it will really take to get the work done.
[00:31:07] They recently had a new set of mandates come down to their team, but the priorities don't seem to be clear and the resources don't seem to be there to accomplish the goal, the manager says. More and more attention is growing between the manager and their boss. What do you suggest this person do to improve the dynamic and sort of manage up?
[00:31:28] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: I think you have to be really careful when there's a power dynamic and somebody has More positional power in an organization. So I always say, you know, proceed with caution because you, you may not have permission to push back. I mean, depending on the culture and how hierarchical it is. I think the best thing you can do to begin.
[00:31:47] Is to build a really strong team, because if you and your team, either team members and or colleagues can come together and say, okay, this is what we need to tackle. And you really believe you can't push back. At least you can do it as a team. And you can look at how you allocate the work across and join forces to do it together.
[00:32:08] So I think we underestimate. The power of the collective and we feel very alone and frustrated in our lack of power in these situations, but it's very, very powerful to have colleagues and team members where you can say, okay, we got a lot. This is a lot. It might be more than what we think we can get done.
[00:32:24] Let's just take it piece by piece. Let's carve off an amount we can do right now. Let's tackle that. Let's feel really good about it. Acknowledge that success. And then I think success builds trust with your leadership. And you can say, this is what we've accomplished. It was a lot. This is what it took the team to get it done.
[00:32:43] Does that feel right for you? Like, I think this is where you want to educate up, but I think it's easier to educate up once you have. Gotten some of the work done, because what I envision is that your leadership is feeling exposed themselves in some way. And that's what's creating the, you need to get this done versus the, hey, what would it take to get it done?
[00:33:06] My guess is they're getting pressure from above. That's 1 scenario. I think the other scenario that comes to mind is. One of my favorite terms is that when I have to guide people on going to their leadership is I say, ask for guidance, use that tone. It shifts your leadership into a mentorship sponsorship type place versus, uh, you're telling me you're not going to get done what I told you to do.
[00:33:33] They shift into a stance of, you know, supportive. So, you know, let's say Abigail, you're, you're my manager in this case. Okay. You know, Abigail, thank you so much for letting us know what we need to get done and what the expectations are and what we need to deliver on and why. Really appreciate that. I would really appreciate your guidance.
[00:33:51] The team was also working on X, Y, and Z. I want to just get your thoughts on how maybe we should prioritize or talk through some of what my team is sharing with me it takes to get it done and would love to get your thoughts on it and just kind of process it with you.
[00:34:06] Dr. Emily Haseltine: I love that. I love that idea. I actually, I love the idea for asking for guidance almost as a general rule.
[00:34:12] I mean, I think in a work setting, it's a really nice way of, yeah, kind of pulling for a bit of mentorship and collaboration. I also think in particular, it is one strategy that can really appeal to someone who's a bit more narcissistic because we're asking for their expertise to help us, right? I think it's, it's meaningful.
[00:34:33] Um, Regardless, but it also probably appeals to that for them. So I'd love to have your guidance. Is there any way you could weigh in? You have more experience. I'd love to share, you know, can you share your insights? I think any opportunity for any level of person who presents with a bit of this is approaching them in that way.
[00:34:51] Even if it's in a tiny way in a site, you know, like, even if you're having a really challenging conversation with them, like we were talking about earlier, it's always going to be helpful, right?
[00:35:03] Abigail Charlu: That's good. And to kind of wrap us up, it sounds like it's really important to have some of these difficult conversations when dealing with really difficult people.
[00:35:13] If those difficult conversations don't work, do you have any advice for what to do next?
[00:35:18] Dr. Emily Haseltine: I would say in general, seek support from trusted people. I would always say in any situation, especially even in my field, when there's something we always document, but documentation, very specific documentation would be helpful.
[00:35:32] I think it's very important. I think bringing in H. R. and I think sometimes H. R. also with legal just so that you want to anticipate. You know, I never want to think about things escalating, but you just want to know 1, you're going to have support from various parts of the organization and then to kind of have.
[00:35:49] These are sometimes the people that create such a stir that it can be a real challenge and they bring it to an organizational level or they can bring it to a legal level.
[00:35:58] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: That’s been my experience too is the types of personalities where you can't give them feedback and they flip the narrative on you.
[00:36:05] I agree they are the ones who are often going to blame you, your boss, the whole organization. It can get ugly. The 1 other thing that we didn't really get into, but I'll add just as a final point is do not underestimate the power of the team. I think sometimes we feel very alone as the leader or as the manager, but when you create a healthy team dynamic, and your team has team agreements and team norms and treat each other with kindness and respect.
[00:36:33] That sometimes will hold the container and help you to manage or manage out somebody who does not want to behave with kindness and a growth mindset. They eventually won't be able to survive because no one's playing into their script and that can help you so much so you don't have to go it alone as well.
[00:36:55] Abigail Charlu: Amazing. Thank you both for diving into these really challenging topics. These things happen all the time in the workplace and they're very difficult to navigate.
[00:37:03] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: Thanks, Abigail, for bringing in the questions and helping us to move through them together. And Emily, thank you so much for joining and for all of the wisdom and I, I know the work that you do in the world is making such a difference and so many people are needing support right now.
[00:37:21] So really appreciate everything you do and for you joining and helping us to answer some of these questions and navigate what we know is one of the most challenging things that people are dealing with at work. Thanks so much to you both.
[00:37:32] Dr. Emily Haseltine: It was a real pleasure chatting with you today about this topic. Thanks so much to you both. It was a real pleasure chatting with you today about this topic. Thank you.
[00:37:44] Emily Frieze-Kemeny: As we wrap up the episode. this is a perfect example of what we try to do when we come together on Let's Talk People. We go to the really hard places of leading and managing others and navigating work dynamics.
[00:37:56] I wanted to take a step back so we can think about how do we apply what we've been discussing around managing people where it's really difficult and they may exhibit narcissistic type qualities.
[00:38:09] It's about striking a balance between us caring and bringing that empathetic side of being a people manager and that people who are working and are being paid to do the job need to deliver results.
[00:38:25] It's about holding multiple truths because there are different ways that people perceive situations and one of the things we're always doing as a manager is navigating them. That regardless of whether we agree with how someone feels and how they see the situation, we can acknowledge that we have heard.
[00:38:47] Their words and hurt their feelings that helps a lot and we don't need to go into their narrative We can stay separate from it and be an observer of it. It is not about agreement when you don't agree We don't need to take the bait We can bring it back to a place of being neutral and sticking to the facts There are times where we have to be very direct in the feedback that we give, and there are times we can wear more of that coach hat depending on what we need to bring to the situation to help move it forward in a productive way for the sake of the team and the sake of the work.
[00:39:22] Always document because that's protection for you and for your organization and from a wellbeing perspective because these types of interpersonal dynamics at work can really throw us off kilter. It's about grounding yourself, planting your feet on the ground solidly, taking some breaths and really trying to just be in that present moment.
[00:39:47] So thanks for sitting with it and Helping to think this through alongside us. We know it's really tough to lead and we are better together.
[00:39:58] Thanks for joining today's episode of Let's Talk People. For more info and insights, visit arosegroup.com and find me, Emily Frieze-Kemeny on LinkedIn and Instagram.. If you're enjoying the show, please follow, share on social and leave a rating or review in your podcast app. It helps other listeners to discover us.
[00:40:18] Well, that's a wrap friends until next time when we come together to talk people.
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